Scott MacLeod
5:45 PM (2 hours ago)
to nontheist-friends
Anita, JohnM, NtFs, All,
Re "Translating Religion Into Nontheistic Beliefs" ...
here's another public broadcasting perspective on religion from Mark Shields on the PBS News Hour (search on "Religion in the text here) -
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/shields-and-brooks-on-trump-and-race-democrats-2020-values -
where Mark Shields (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Shields) says in a conversation format, from one side of the political commentator aisle: "I mean, there is no abolitionist movement in this country without religion. There is no anti-war movement without religion in its ranks. There is no civil rights movement.
And the Democrats can claim in all three of those."
For Quakers - and many Nontheist Friends too I affirm - religion significantly affirms abolitionism, anti-war (eg Quaker Peace Testimony), and civil rights, as religion, and religion is also an important stream in America (and most of the other ~200 countries in the world, I'd suggest too), and for some NtFs in all of the above senses too too ... Anita, I think religion informs "what value religion has for us nontheists" Friends, and atheist Quakers too, in that NtFs continue to come into Friendly conversation with Quakerism. (The NPR broadcast transcript mentions too Scott Atran's thinking, an evolutionary biologist and atheist who seeks to understand religion from these perspectives, and who has long been in the references of both the Non-theist Quakers' Wikipedia entry - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nontheist_Quakers - in English, and also in the Spanish NtQ entry - https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cu%C3%A1quero_no_te%C3%ADsta - as well as in the Non-theist Friends (atheist Quakers?) wiki school https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/Nontheist_Friends_(atheist_Quakers%3F) in English).
In a very different vein re "Translating Religion Into Nontheistic Beliefs" and "what value religion has for us nontheists" re this ...
"Loving bliss and practices to elicit this"
http://scottmacleod.com/LovingBlissPractices.htm ...
I seek to explore and share ways to elicit such loving bliss neurophysiology, touching in this letter on departing from the language of religion and spirituality, and with explicit exploration of this re nontheist Friends - "And nontheist F/friends, with the possibility of shaping friendly language that doesn't invoke the supernatural, but where loving bliss arises partly vis-à-vis an emergent language and culture, may also facilitate this." - and also explicitly in the context of Quaker thinking. While I've shared this before with NtFs on this email list, I think, and it's "out of the box" thinking too, this is where I head with "translating religion Into nontheistic beliefs" and "what value religion has for us non-theists."
As George Fox, founder of Quakerism was supposed to have said: "what canst thou say?" ... and I seek to explore this too in wiki conversation re friendly non-theistic eliciting of I suppose kinds of belief re brain chemistry here - https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/Loving_Bliss_(eliciting_this_neurophysiology) - and potentially with you - https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/Nontheist_Friends_(atheist_Quakers%3F) . What music or dance or experiences in Silent Meeting, or otherwise move you in these headings?
Non-theistically f/Friendly cheers, :)
Scott
--
- Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
- World University and School
- http://worlduniversityandschool.org
- 415 480 4577
- http://scottmacleod.com
- CC World University and School - like CC Wikipedia with best STEM-centric CC OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization.
* *
Saturday, August 3, 2019
Anita Bower
Sat, Aug 3, 5:25 AM (1 day ago)
to nontheist-friends
I am interested in what value religion has for us nontheists.
Along those lines, I recently listened to an interesting podcast interview with a social psychologist who thinks religions and gods were cultural evolutionary creations to help keep a large group of people together and functioning well.
https://www.npr.org/2019/05/06/720656274/where-does-religion-come-from-one-researcher-points-to-cultural-evolution
(Forgive my not erasing the long stuff after John's email. I'm new to gmail and can't figure out how to erase it.)
Anita
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nontheist-friends/CA%2B8XWuLSUEJMHEpQtvtSzA0h%2BNxOTi8Ye7g7NaiJ0uUKdMkM-w%40mail.gmail.com.
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Sunday, August 4, 2019
I want to comment on Scott's latest email. Scott writes:
"Mark Shields says in a conversation format, from one side of the political commentator aisle: "I mean, there is no abolitionist movement in this country without religion. There is no anti-war movement without religion in its ranks. There is no civil rights movement."
That religion was involved in abolition does not mean that religion is necessary for good to flourish. Religion was also involved in maintaining slavery. Religion has a purpose and does good, but I don't think it is necessary for nontheists. There are secular humanist organizations that promote the general good.
Scott also writes: "... Anita, I think religion inform "what value religion has for us nontheists" Friends, and atheist Quakers too, in that NtFs continuing to come into Friendly conversation with Quakerism."
Quakerism has a set of values that are important to me. I think those same values exist in liberal Methodism, in which I was raised. It is the values I am interested in. The organizations--be they Quaker or Methodist or Democratic Party--are problematic for me.
Anita
*
Thanks, Anita, and NtFs,
Leads me to wonder how NtFs as an 'organization' could become 'increasingly better'? ... and your observations here (and in previous NtF email conversations), and your constructive critical (friendly) engagement writing-wise with NtFs, suggest for me ways to do this. Am also appreciating your implicit 'historicization' of NtFs with regards to Quakerism, Methodism and the Democratic Party re how organizations change, - with relevance for non-theism Friends, and this thread too. (Just noticed in searching on some Google Admin questions, that they consider their various platforms - such as this email list - as 'organizational units').
With regard to the second part of my email re eliciting loving bliss neurophysiology (as a non-theist Friend's exploration in writing) and re the above, am curious whether further 'writing as an expression of 'organizations' ' could lead to more fulsome explorations of a metaphorical on-off switch of these loving bliss neural cascades of pleasure biological experiences (but construed here in the context of religion by leaving religion of spirituality behind - possibly as organizations too - behind. Loving bliss neurophysiology or neural cascades of pleasure to name these in two ways are 'simply divine' - may be something about the specific qualities of 'light within' in the neural firings :). (All a bit wordy, think I'm going to turn on Grateful Dead music from the 1970s - https://archive.org/details/GratefulDead - where the GD as organization as rock and roll band, quasi-nontheistic-'religion' for some, were also about change, - hippy change; am also an appreciator of classical Indian raga, as well as opera at times ... all re my "translating religion Into nontheistic beliefs" and "what value religion has for us nontheists." You?:).
JohnM: Re your "Religion has some valuable spiritual beliefs often lost when theistism is rejected. Howi do you prevent the baby from going out with the bath water?" Change the organization of religion NtF-wise ... and possibly for me in the direction of brain neurophysiology mediated by sociocultural communication processes. Change via communication, NtF-wise? :)
NtF cheers, Scott
*
Missed a good sermon recently - "The sermon on Jonah from Moby Dick" -
https://youtu.be/qb-g4O2QDZg ? Was just watching yesterday the film "Moby Dick" (1956) with Gregory Peck, directed by John Huston, where Orson Welles is the minister - and in the Seaman's Bethel (which I know fairly well personally from having grown up in SE Massachusetts in summers) in New Bedford Massachusetts, which sent many a crew in the name of religion to the south Pacific on a bloody lucrative quest. The film also portrays Herman Melville's ship owners of the Pequod (which means "Destruction") who are Quakers ... newly represented in this film compared with the book "Moby Dick." (This film is worth seeing in many ways:). Film offers great insight into a very different culture, which included Quakers significantly (NB in the 1700 and 1800s) and which has changed religion-organization-wise.
The old Quaker Meeting House in New Bedford, long closed but still in decent shape, is interesting because it has male and female entrances.
Glad we're having this "[NTF-talk] Translating Religion Into Nontheistic Beliefs" conversation partly about "change" via the creation anew of non-theist Friendly discourse / culture ... beliefs as neurophysiology even :)
NtF cheers, Scott
*
Actually the New Bedford Quaker Meeting may have been opened again fairly recently
https://www.google.com/maps/place/Quaker+Meetings/@41.633507,-70.928128,15z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x3ed3f3f7ab73bc53!8m2!3d41.633507!4d-70.928128 - https://neym.org/meetings/new-bedford
I think I last visited its outside 2-3 years ago, and it was in dilapidated condition.
For your interest, here's more information the New Bedford Quaker Meeting House and Quakers in New England
http://www.whalingcity.net/picture_1906_quaker_meeting_house.html
http://www.dvvarchitects.com/newbedfordfriendsmeetinghousepage.html
https://www.nps.gov/nebe/learn/historyculture/quakers.htm
https://www.southcoasttoday.com/article/19990722/news/307229970
* *
Thanks so much, JohnM, and NtFs,
Appreciating both the "The Cultural Evolution of Religion" article and its engagement with Scott Atran's thinking (they've co-authored papers). Am aware too of the challenges of bringing together biological and cultural, especially re languages, questions of explaining how social processes such as religion emerged. (While I've met Atran around 2003-2004, I come back to Dawkins' meme idea - replicating cultural units (my loose definition) - of sometimes very random and arbitrary cultural processes, paralleling how genes replicate across 3-100 million species, over 3.5 billion years of life; Stephen Jay Gould, which this paper mentions in its first paragraph, used the 'spandrels of San Marcos' in Venice Italy, as metaphor to explore the arbitrary evolution of biological structures of the body which have no function relating to adaptation or passing on genes or otherwise. Evolution has significant random and arbitrary effects - including perhaps religion). Will dip into article further.
Here's a related very different approach to 'origin stories' (ie re religion and evolutionary biology) re Richard Dawkins - https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins/status/1157710130978414593 - in a new NY Times' article - "A Battle Is Raging in the Tree of Life: Which came first, the sponge or the comb jelly?" https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/02/science/tree-of-life-sponges-jellies.html - which suggests how wide open this field is academically. Am appreciative too of both Dawkins and Anita's perspectives re problems with religion, where Dawkins offers "Good-humoured ridicule of religions" (https://twitter.com/RichardDawkins) - a mature position tempered by many many reasoned debates - and Anita's view that good can flourish without religion probably organized or otherwise.
But am an appreciator too of the experiential aspect of non-theistically Friendly explorations and creations especially. Have blogged about some aspects of this NtF email thread here - https://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2019/08/wild-garlic-allium-ursinum-loving-bliss.html (including some further information I didn't share with this list).
('j5pickle@aol.com' - twice in this thread your emails from your aol email address have come through blank - again - Get & add a new gmail address to this NtF email list, like Anita has recently? Might be a solution. Cheers)
NtF cheers, Scott
Appreciating the experiential aspect of non-theistically Friendly explorations & creations. Have blogged about some aspects of this thoughtful '[NTF-talk] Translating Religion Into Nontheistic Beliefs' NtF thread here https://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2019/08/wild-garlic-allium-ursinum-loving-bliss.html #NontheistFriends #AtheistQuakers ~
https://twitter.com/scottmacleod/status/1158117547209662464
Appreciating the experiential aspect of non-theistically Friendly explorations & creations. Have blogged about some aspects of this thoughtful '[NTF-talk] Translating Religion Into Nontheistic Beliefs' NtF thread here https://t.co/Q6wUdNIMoQ #NontheistFriends #AtheistQuakers ~— ScottMacLeod (@scottmacleod) August 4, 2019
* *
Claire Cafaro
10:32 AM (10 hours ago)
to nontheist-friends@googlegroups.com
Friends, I have not been able to follow all of the responses to the original subject "Translating Religion Into Non-theistic Beliefs". And now that I have typed those words between quotation marks, I realize I don't know what they actually mean.
What does it mean to translate religion? And what are non-theistic beliefs? I suppose everyone on this list has his/her/their own definition for these terms, as well as his/her/their own way of being a non-theist quaker.
Quaker Process is more important to me than Beliefs, which change as we evolve. The idea of listening, reflecting, opening myself to others' ideas and reserving judgment until the dust settles, as exemplified in meeting for business, is my lodestone. I think it is our gift to the world, if only the world would accept it.
claire cafaro
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Jim Cain
10:47 AM (10 hours ago)
to nontheist-friends
Claire speaks my mind here. I use ‘translation’ in a different manner. When I listen to someone or read something – the Bible for instance – I am listening/looking for the measure of truth the speaker or writer is expressing. How does the content/idea/intent mesh with or enhance or change my way of seeing things? I don’t see ‘religion’ as a negative word and don’t use ‘spirituality’ or other words in its place. I think of ‘religion’ as humankind’s ancient and ongoing search for understanding and meaning. What I love about Quakers is the emphasis on the ongoing process of discovery in lieu of doctrine concretized dogma and I particularly love it when we in the ‘process of discovery’ together.
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JohnH
2:09 PM (7 hours ago)
to nontheist-friends@googlegroups.com
Jim's and Claire's posts certainly speak my mind too.
I have long viewed liberal Quakerism (eg most unprogramed Friends, and some pastoral programmed Friends) as participating in an orthopraxy and politely rejecting orthodoxy as it relates to personal beliefs. We see the beginnings of this trend among Friends at least as far back as Lucretia Mott or even further if one interprets (most of) William Penn sayings through a practical lens of human behavior. (Perhaps most notable is Penn's "To be like Christ is to be a Christian" or Lucretia Mott's version, "The likeness we bear to Jesus is more essential than our notions of him." These statements can clearly be interpreted as recommending behavior and deportment over beliefs ("notions.")
The practices of Friends work for me so long as they remain vital in the spirit of their conception as opposed to calcifying into rigid rules (or "forms", in Quaker speak.) The whole notion of continuing revelation of Truth is a marvelous statement of expecting that our notions what we only partially understand (and therefore have beliefs about) will inevitably be changed as time passes. I see it as kind of like the scientific method (practices) in that if our (Quaker community) practices are healthy, they will result in ever increasing and changing understandings to make our spiritually connected lives better. (By "spiritually" I mean a sense of rightness and belonging in our place and time.)
John H.
*
Hi Claire, Jim, JohnM, and JohnH and NtFs,
You speak my mind as well in many ways. I affirm this "[NTF-talk] Translating Religion Into Non-theistic Beliefs" thread conversation as a whole as well. (In the thread's name, I'm reminded that Richard Dawkins has been embarking on a very related project over decades now - that is, translating religion Into non-theistic beliefs (from a scientists' perspective, and there are many scientists among Friends and some among NtFs) - and I wanted to try to understand some of Dawkins' key points and project. While these points are not that germane to our un-folding NtF conversation as I see it - which conversation I'm grateful for, for its diversity and multi-vocality - I did find a kind of summary of Dawkins' "religion into non-theism" here - https://en.wikipedia.org/
NtF regards, Scott
Dawkins dedicates the book to Douglas Adams and quotes the novelist: "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"[12]:7 The book contains ten chapters. The first few chapters make a case that there almost certainly is no God, while the rest discuss religion and morality.
Dawkins writes that The God Delusion contains four "consciousness-raising" messages:
- Atheists can be happy, balanced, moral, and intellectually fulfilled.
- Natural selection and similar scientific theories are superior to a "God hypothesis"—the illusion of intelligent design—in explaining the living world and the cosmos.
- Children should not be labelled by their parents' religion. Terms like "Catholic child" or "Muslim child" should make people cringe.
- Atheists should be proud, not apologetic, because atheism is evidence of a healthy, independent mind.[3]
Chapter one, "A deeply religious non-believer", seeks to clarify the difference between what Dawkins terms "Einsteinian religion" and "supernatural religion". He notes that the former includes quasi-mystical and pantheistic references to God in the work of physicists like Albert Einstein and Stephen Hawking, and describes such pantheism as "sexed up atheism". Dawkins instead takes issue with the theism present in religions like Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism.[13] The proposed existence of this interventionist God, which Dawkins calls the "God Hypothesis", becomes an important theme in the book.[14] He maintains that the existence or non-existence of God is a scientific fact about the universe, which is discoverable in principle if not in practice.[15]
Dawkins summarises the main philosophical arguments on God's existence, singling out the argument from design for longer consideration. Dawkins concludes that evolution by natural selection can explain apparent design in nature.[3]
He writes that one of the greatest challenges to the human intellect has been to explain "how the complex, improbable design in the universe arises", and suggests that there are two competing explanations:
- A hypothesis involving a designer, that is, a complex being to account for the complexity that we see.
- A hypothesis, with supporting theories, that explains how, from simple origins and principles, something more complex can emerge.
This is the basic set-up of his argument against the existence of God, the Ultimate Boeing 747 gambit,[16] where he argues that the first attempt is self-refuting, and the second approach is the way forward.[17]
At the end of chapter 4 ("Why there almost certainly is no God"), Dawkins sums up his argument and states, "The temptation [to attribute the appearance of design to actual design itself] is a false one, because the designer hypothesis immediately raises the larger problem of who designed the designer. The whole problem we started out with was the problem of explaining statistical improbability. It is obviously no solution to postulate something even more improbable".[18] In addition, chapter 4 asserts that the alternative to the designer hypothesis is not chance, but natural selection.
Dawkins does not claim to disprove God with absolute certainty. Instead, he suggests as a general principle that simpler explanations are preferable (see Occam's razor) and that an omniscient or omnipotent
The second half of the book begins by exploring the roots of religion and seeking an explanation for its ubiquity across human cultures. Dawkins advocates the "theory of religion as an accidental by-product – a misfiring of something useful"[20] as for example the mind's employment of intentional stance. Dawkins suggests that the theory of memes, and human susceptibility to religious memes in particular, can explain how religions might spread like "mind viruses" across societies.[21]
He then turns to the subject of morality, maintaining that we do not need religion to be good. Instead, our morality has a Darwinian explanation: altruistic genes, selected through the process of evolution, give people natural empathy. He asks, "would you commit murder, rape or robbery if you knew that no God existed?" He argues that very few people would answer "yes", undermining the claim that religion is needed to make us behave morally. In support of this view, he surveys the history of morality, arguing that there is a moral Zeitgeist that continually evolves in society, generally progressing toward liberalism. As it progresses, this moral consensus influences how religious leaders interpret their holy writings. Thus, Dawkins states, morality does not originate from the Bible, rather our moral progress informs what part of the Bible Christians accept and what they now dismiss.[22]
The God Delusion is not just a defence of atheism, but also goes on the offensive against religion. Dawkins sees religion as subverting science, fostering fanaticism, encouraging bigotry against homosexuals, and influencing society in other negative ways.[23] Dawkins regards religion as a "divisive force" and as a "label for in-group/out-group enmity and vendetta".[24]
He is most outraged about the teaching of religion in schools, which he considers to be an indoctrination process. He equates the religious teaching of children by parents and teachers in faith schools to a form of mental abuse. Dawkins considers the labels "Muslim child" and "Catholic child" equally misapplied as the descriptions "Marxist child" and "Tory child", as he wonders how a young child can be considered developed enough to have such independent views on the cosmos and humanity's place within it.
The book concludes with the question of whether religion, despite its alleged problems, fills a "much needed gap", giving consolation and inspiration to people who need it. According to Dawkins, these needs are much better filled by non-religious means such as philosophy and science. He suggests that an atheistic worldview is life-affirming in a way that religion, with its unsatisfying "answers" to life's mysteries, could never be. An appendix gives addresses for those "needing support in escaping religion".
* *
Tuesday, August 6, 2019
'Jeanne Warren' via Nontheist Friends (Quakers)
12:11 AM (11 hours ago)
to nontheist-friends
I explain the sort of experience you describe as being an experience of a dimension of ourselves, I would call it the unconscious, of which most of us are only dimly aware, but of which some people are much more aware. Our culture tends to dismiss its importance, which does not encourage us to pay attention to it. I think it is as real as anything else we experience, though I didn't think that way growing up. I also think it is not completely private to an individual but connects the individual to a wider reality. The image I use for myself is that of islands which are connected to each other via the sea bed. That is only an image, not a literal description! Islands are impersonal, but I think the unconscious is not.
My task for myself in life has been to figure out how talk of God fits with this understanding of reality. It has been a rewarding search.
Jeanne Warren
Oxford Meeting, England
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'Jeanne Warren' via Nontheist Friends (Quakers)
12:26 AM (10 hours ago)
to nontheist-friends
I agree with the central point of this. To me, the rejection of orthodoxy goes back to the very beginning of Quakers, when George Fox and others rejected the 'notions' of the established church of the day, with its theologically-trained clergy. That is one thing that made early Friends so disliked, even persecuted, by the authorities. Their whole system of religious thought was threatened.
Of course subsequent generations of Quakers have to continue the work. Sometimes the impetus has been lost and an attempt at imposed orthodoxy has been made. However by recovering our roots we can be empowered to see where this is a mistake. As thought moves on, we may have to make even more radical choices, but the Quaker emphasis on experience is one guide to help us.
Jeanne
-----Original Message-----
From: nontheist-friends@googlegroups.com [mailto:nontheist-friends@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John
Sent: 05 August 2019 22:09
To: nontheist-friends@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [NTF-talk] Translating Religion Into Nontheistic Beliefs
Jim's and Claire's posts certainly speak my mind too.
I have long viewed liberal Quakerism (eg most unprogramed Friends, and some pastoral programmed Friends) as participating in an orthopraxy and politely rejecting orthodoxy as it relates to personal beliefs. We see the beginnings of this trend among Friends at least as far back as Lucretia Mott or even further if one interprets (most of) William Penn sayings through a practical lens of human behavior. (Perhaps most notable is Penn's "To be like Christ is to be a Christian" or Lucretia Mott's version, "The likeness we bear to Jesus is more essential than our notions of him." These statements can clearly be interpreted as recommending behavior and deportment over beliefs ("notions.")
The practices of Friends work for me so long as they remain vital in the spirit of their conception as opposed to calcifying into rigid rules (or "forms", in Quaker speak.) The whole notion of continuing revelation of Truth is a marvelous statement of expecting that our notions what we only partially understand (and therefore have beliefs about) will inevitably be changed as time passes. I see it as kind of like the scientific method (practices) in that if our (Quaker community) practices are healthy, they will result in ever increasing and changing understandings to make our spiritually connected lives better. (By "spiritually" I mean a sense of rightness and belonging in our place and time.)
John H.
*
Anita Bower
3:24 AM (7 hours ago)
to nontheist-friends
Barbara wrote:
I appreciate this timely thread, as I have recently been grappling with the seeming contradiction of being a Nontheist Friend. Am I able to experience centering down or expectant waiting during Silent Worship, how do I know when I should rise and give a spoken message if I am not a Christ/God-centered person?
At the Meeting I attend, there is time allowed for people to share messages that didn't rise to the level of being shared during Silent Worship. Two Sundays ago, there were particularly poignant messages regarding belonging, vulnerability, and being other - at first in reference to our worsening racial divide in the US, and later included other identities. I cried the entire hour, that's how powerful and healing the spoken messages were. After Silent Worship, more people shared their thoughts. I remember feeling so nervous when I stood up to speak, and I can remember a few words here and there, but ... it was almost as if it wasn't me talking. How do I explain that experience as an atheist?
So, I'm looking forward to the continuing discussion.
The question of when to rise to speak as a nontheist is one I've wondered about. I hope others share their views on this.
Your experience of the emotional and moving sharing in and after meeting for worship makes sense to me. I would explain your not remembering what you said to your emotional state--you were deeply affected by the messages, you were crying, you spoke from your deepest self, not just from your rational self. That you don't remember what you said does not surprise me. I've seen that happen to others in non-religious settings when they were feeling nervous. Also, the mood of the group is often shared by all.
Anita
*
John Moorman
3:34 AM (7 hours ago)
to Nontheist
Dear Friends. I was overwhelmed by the number and variety of responses my post generated. Common themes were about a definition of terms and the value of making a distinction between to what to some are unrelated ideas.
My premise is that religion, however defined, and spirituality, however defined, are overlapping beliefs, memes or ideas and both have useful ideas. I’ll accept any common definition of religion and use a definition of spirituality from a scientific naturalist philosophical point of view.
It’s the shared characteristics that I am interested in, such as ...
* * *
Before I re-write this:
'Loving bliss and practices to elicit this'
http://scottmacleod.com/LovingBlissPractices.htm ...
Loving bliss and practices to elicit this
Friends,
Here are some thoughts about loving bliss and practices for this, loosely assembled.
I'm curious about loving bliss from the perspective of neurophysiology, after the at least thousands of generations that precede us, and with potentially thousands more ahead, for those who have children. I've had many experiences of this, which I don't associate with either religious or spiritual language.
I'm not sure people want to read about my experiences, but might instead enjoy reading ways in which they might 'access' loving bliss naturally, although, in brief, here are my experiences with it. Roughly from ages 1-6 were very fun years, coming into language with friends, and with my very fun mother - loving bliss was 'in the air' {i.e. in our bodyminds} ... and here too: on the island where I've grown up in summers in Massachusetts, when I was head sailing instructor there some years ago working with kids, and organizing a talent show in the evenings, and also while hiking the Pacific Crest Trail for four months in California and Oregon a year later. I've also experienced loving bliss at North Pacific Yearly Meeting (Quaker) in the early 1980s, and in the pools at Harbin Hot Springs - http://harbin.org - as well as in the milieu of Harbin, and sometimes while contra-dancing, and while listening to Mozart's arias in "The Magic Flute," {e.g. 'Queen of the Night' arias ~> neural cascades of pleasure}, and when I've loved some women in the past – a lot.
Loving bliss doesn't occur for me continually in these examples, and these examples represent a variety of qualities of it, but it is these experiences, thoughts and neurophysiology I enjoy, find fascinating and wish to explore further with friends. I've also had these experiences while caring for others. They are each a kind of 'flow' experience (see Csikszentmihalyi's "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience").
Philosophically and neurophysiologically only, I think ecstasy (MDMA - methylene_dioxy_meth_amphetamine) is a fascinating, reference experience. The above experiences all loosely relate to what I imagine MDMA {ecstasy} experiences to offer. Such neurochemistry suggests that these processes are biological, and not supernatural or spiritual (as some might suggest), and ingesting such a compound suggests also that there is a kind of threshold across which these states emerge. While the following definition doesn't fully explain what loving bliss is for me, it does involve experiences that are deeply, gratefully harmonizing, and reciprocally appreciative and affectionate, both with a friend or friends, and alone, as well as profoundly and naturally high at the same time, and which are ongoing, biological, 'flow' experiences. {What is it for you?} So I think one can access loving bliss, and while I'm a little 'wired' for it - I think it's part of my neurophysiology - I'm interested in exploring the threshold effect idea, where we can think about, create and enter into these fugue-like states, naturally and extensively.
And while it's part of other people's neurophysiologies - - Kenneth Boulding's (Quaker economist and poet) comment, at Olney Friends' School in Barnesville, Ohio, when asked about his cheeriness: "Oh," (he chortled in his English accent – I've met him before) "it's glandular," - I think loving bliss is accentuated also by idealistic and intelligent discourse.
But I haven't had these experiences all the time, and don't have, and I'm curious about accessing this neurophysiology in an almost naturally emergent way, perhaps by doing less - wu wei {non-action in the Taoist writers' Lao Tzu or Chuang Tzu's senses}, - or as if one were surfing a wave, or singing a line of music rapturously and floating on this, or as easily and freely as 'googling' information and surfing the World Wide Web, and how, when, and for as long as one wants. How can one begin to just let loving bliss happen, and then welcome it on and on? {The pacifism, simplicity, integrity, open-endedness and focus on goodness of Quaker, silent meeting, as well as the relaxation response, seems to provide possible bases. How to let loving bliss emerge with awareness, and flower profoundly and profusely as it's beginning to bubble up in one's bodymind are questions, and experiences, I'm exploring. Let's explore this together, over decades.
I'm also interested in thinking out of the box – outside familiar patterns and norms, which is something (nontheist) Friends have explored historically (with conscientious objection to war, fighting and violence, for example) - to explore how to access loving bliss fully. Click on the 'notes' here for further thoughts about this - scottmacleod.com/yoga.htm}.
How to imagine and envision the kind of loving bliss you want, and then realize this? Sometimes loving bliss just bubbles up for me, - especially in beautiful, natural areas, in the Harbin Hot Springs' pools, and in silent meeting, among many places. While a beautiful place can help cultivate bliss, omega-3 fatty acids (1000 mg flax seed oil, 3-4 times per day with food) may also be helpful. And nontheist friends, with the possibility of shaping friendly language that doesn't invoke the supernatural, but where loving bliss arises partly vis-à-vis an emergent language and culture, may also facilitate this. So, for me, both Harbin Hot Springs with its wonderful milieu, as well as the open-ended form of the unprogrammed, nontheist tradition of the Society of Friends (Quaker), offer interesting contexts in which to explore these questions, neurophysiology and language.
I'd love to explore and find ways with you to give rise to the wondrous weather of loving bliss in our bodyminds, whenever we want it, freely and with personal freedom, and in so many ways.
Let's communicate further, directly or indirectly, about loving bliss as friends. :)
Warm regards,
Scott
Scott
A basis for loving bliss (the following open the way to bliss for me, - explore innovative ways for yourself):
relaxing into the relaxation response (Benson 1972)
releasing and breathing practices (especially delicious ones)
{a healthy bodymind also seems important, - walking, yoga asana, swimming, dancing, a good diet, and flax seed omega-3 fatty acids taken with food, and a daily multivitamin?}
For bliss {each of the following can be a rich kind of flow experience, - especially when cultivating bliss; in some ways these are 'technologies' for bliss}:
listening to music (iTunes)
- arias in Mozart's "Magic Flute," especially
- "O zittre nicht" aria (on youtube.com)
- "The Queen of the Night" aria
- Yo-Yo Ma playing J.S. Bach's "Cello Suites" (here's the Prelude)
- Grateful Dead ~ Going Down the Road Feeling Bad
- Acoustic Blues channel on Pandora.com
- The Belleville A Cappella Choir, recorded by ethnomusicologist Alan Lomax (on pandora.com)
dancing (especially New England contra-dance for me)
singing & improvisational, play singing
making music
playing and working with kids
eating extraordinary food
making love, intimacy, sexuality & coitus
conversing (mind-expanding & receptive, intellectual conversation)
engaging great music, poetry, literature, art, etc.
enjoying incredible nature, natural areas, wildflowers, flowers ..., - richly
traveling
opening to bliss while moving back and forth between Harbin Hot Springs' hot (113 F / 60 C) & cold (60 F / 15 C) pools
shaping a virtual world to explore practices of loving bliss?
smiling ~ beaming :))
~ What helps you elicit bliss naturally?
For love:
reciprocated, ongoing affection for another, a friend
exploring love in art, music, and ideas with a dear friend, and/or friends
nameless, loving understandings between friends who love one another
receiving and giving warmth and love with a radiant friend
Practice loving bliss:
consider using language that works for you as a kind of art or technology to bring these qualities of bliss to your bodymind in a variety of ways
> learn loving bliss through practice
{guidelines for practicing loving bliss vis-à-vis practicing a musical instrument}
{guidelines for practicing loving bliss vis-à-vis practicing a musical instrument}
> rekindle a lovingly blissful memory in your bodymind, and let this flower
> explore loving bliss {with friends} ~ dream it ~ write about it~ focus on it ~ create it :)
Knowledge-based resources
(starting approaches for exploring loving bliss)
(starting approaches for exploring loving bliss)
Benson, Herbert and Miriam Z. Klipper. 2000 [1972]. The Relaxation Response. Expanded updated edition. Harper.
http://www.amazon.com/Relaxation-Response-M-D-Herbert-Benson/dp/0380815958/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7423243-3126334?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1184081854&sr=8-1
Csikszentmihalyi, Mihalyi. 1997. Finding Flow: The Psychology of Engagement with Everyday Life. Basic.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465024114/qid=1152742117/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-5928915-8116654?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465024114/qid=1152742117/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-5928915-8116654?s=books&v=glance&n=283155
Csikszentmihalyi, Mihalyi. 1991. Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience. Rider & Company.
http://www.amazon.com/Flow-Mihaly-Csikszentmihalyi/dp/0712657592/sr=1-1/qid=1157727810/ref=sr_1_1/104-2411940-9149542?ie=UTF8&s=books
http://www.amazon.com/Flow-Mihaly-Csikszentmihalyi/dp/0712657592/sr=1-1/qid=1157727810/ref=sr_1_1/104-2411940-9149542?ie=UTF8&s=books
Foster, Rick, and Greg Hicks. 2004. How We Choose to Be Happy: The 9 Choices of Extremely Happy People--Their Secrets, Their Stories. Perigree.
http://www.choosetobehappy.com/explore/index.html
http://www.choosetobehappy.com/explore/index.html
Oasis, Happy Heavenly. 2004. Bliss Conscious Communication: Transmuting Ordinary Chats Into Extraordinary Conversations. New Zealand: Books for Earthlings. ISBN 0473097664.
http://www.happyoasis.com/HappyBooks.htm
http://www.happyoasis.com/HappyBooks.htm
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http://scottmacleod.com/LovingBlissPractices.htmCopyright Scott MacLeod's Arts 1998 - 2014
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